Amanda Luton (00:05):

It’s time for supply chain. Now broadcasting live from the supply chain capital of the country, Atlanta, Georgia, heard around the world supply chain now spotlights the best in all things, supply chain, the people, the technologies, the best practices, and the critical issues of the day. And now here are your hosts.

Scott Luton (00:28):

Good morning, Scott Luton here with you on supply chain. Now welcome back to the show on today’s episode, we’re speaking with a leading expert in environmental compliance for manufactured products as we continue our interviews with the automotive industry action group. More on that in just a moment. A quick programming note before we get started here. If you enjoy today’s conversation, be sure to find us and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from. Okay, so let’s walk them in my fearless esteem cohost on today’s show, Greg white cereal supply chain, tech entrepreneur and trusted advisor. Greg, good afternoon. Good morning. Good afternoon, morning, day, night time. It’s really hard to tell, isn’t it? It is. It is. Love what Jim and the folks at AIG are doing and glad to talk to Michael today. Absolutely. Let’s do that. So when we welcome in our featured guests for today’s episode, Michael wardsman, founder and president at our S J technical consulting. Michael, how you doing?

Michael Wurzman (01:32):

Doing great today. Staying healthy.

Scott Luton (01:35):

That’s good. That’s uh, moved up on the priority list here these days and great, great for you to be with us and looking forward to learning more about your story. Um, so for starters, Michael, you know, we, we typically like to get a sense of of the character we’re interviewing here. So tell us more about yourself and give us a couple of tidbits from your professional journey.

Michael Wurzman (01:56):

Okay. Well I’ve been involved in environmental type concerns since high school when I was, the co director would have been an organizer. I guess I would put it of our high school protests. The first year that earth day went national, got gas masks on protesting the air quality during the time of the formation of the EPA. And that has stayed with me all my life. And um, I’ve been going through as an engineer, um, it’s sort of a unique approach. I was this rare engineer that believed you needed to understand the political process and got a degree. I wanted to call political engineering, which of course in the time of Watergate was a not quite approved in that name, but we saw where things were going during the energy crisis just in 73 and little did I know what I studied then would actually become time many years later. But in pursuing the route, uh, I had left the corporate world when my daughter who has Tourette’s, needed more attention and I left so I could structure my business, work around her and family and form my company back early 91 called it RSJ technical where RSJ are the initials of my three kids. And so,

Greg White (03:34):

and I’ll do all of the three names, Michael R,

Michael Wurzman (03:39):

it’s Rachel, Stephanie and Joshua. And those are we trying to decide how we should use them for name? It was decided chronological order was definitely best. Yeah.

Greg White (03:51):

Like everything else with your children, that’s the only way that can even be seen as remotely fair. Right?

Michael Wurzman (03:57):

Absolutely. Each one is totally unique and uh, they were all willing to agree on that even though they were quite young. So Michael,

Greg White (04:07):

this might be before Scott was even born, but you referred to a time when, if I recall I was a kid at the time. Um, there were gas lines, right. Is that um, is that when you were talking about 73 ish or whatever? I don’t remember the exact year, but I recall my father getting a Christmas present

Michael Wurzman (04:37):

was,

Greg White (04:37):

and I spent my vacation at the gas station.

Michael Wurzman (04:40):

Right. That was the, uh, in 73 was the, the oil embargo when we had the crisis gas prices more than tripled when up to a whopping 75 cents a gallon and slightly higher in areas. And I was in Purdue at the time and on the debate team and we, we’re debating the energy crisis and I looked and we had to study all this legislation and everything going on in the official goals of the country war to be an oil non oil dependency within 30 years. And then I watched all the legislation that came through. They guaranteed that we are going to be dependent on oil for a lot further in the future. And that’s when it’s bird me to understand and realize this connection between legislation, which you know, in this area I’m dealing with now is compliance and the role governments have. People have how it all happens. So you can look at what’s there and get a better feel for what goes forward, what to expect. Yeah, that was, that was the time.

Greg White (05:50):

So I wonder if you ever, sorry, I don’t mean to derail us too much Scott, but I wonder if you might’ve ever debated Southwest

Scott Luton (05:58):

Missouri state university.

Michael Wurzman (06:00):

Do you ever recall that? I don’t think we just recall that

Scott Luton (06:07):

my father was the debate coach at Southwest Missouri state, so I bet I feel a bit like your children, which is you can’t win an argument even if you’re right.

Michael Wurzman (06:19):

My father, well, my debate, well, I don’t have that situation because my son went on in debate. Oh, okay. That’s been a debate coach and there’s no way I’m going to, no way I’m going to win an argument there. He is so far ahead of whatever I was able to do.

Scott Luton (06:40):

Outstanding. So, so before Michael, before we talk more about RSJ technical consulting, uh, and, and if anyone I can certainly appreciate and, um, blessed be the ties that bind and we always find how small the world is with each of these podcasts interviews. Uh, I love the common threads on the debate world that we have between your two collective families. Um, but let’s talk about when you think about these pivotal moments in your journey that really helped frame up you’re a global view on things. Clearly the first earth day and the energy crisis, uh, were, were some early big influential events, uh, in your, uh, in your journey. W when you think about what you did prior to launching, um, you’re from what, what, uh, is there a role that sticks out that really, um, helps shape how you view the world?

Michael Wurzman (07:35):

Oh, absolutely. Back in 2000 actually, April 26th to be exact. We had a guest pipe break in our house due to faulty construction 15 years earlier and the house blew up.

Scott Luton (07:50):

Yeah,

Michael Wurzman (07:50):

burnt down, actually made the national news under the title blown to bits and from that whole disaster, luckily no one got hurt. It was just lost virtually everything we owned, but while the firemen were camping out the fire, I asked one of them why when there’s no visible smoke, are you wearing all that protective gear? And I said, yeah, you see all of your neighbors sitting around smelling that kind of Swedish sweet Mel with the smoke. That’s all carcinogenic toxic materials are breathing. If we were exposed to that on a daily basis, we would have cancer and no time at all. And that’s why we have to cover and protect our entire bodies and be using the breathing apparatus even though you don’t see any flame or smoke coming because it’s still coming out of this mass. And as I know, just off hand said, man, I really appreciate everything you did trying to save stuff.

Michael Wurzman (08:53):

I mean obviously not much could be done. I said, we’re still waiting to thank you. And he turned to me and said, yeah, uh, if you could help get rid of all these toxic substances from building products, that would be the best way to thank us. Wow. And it was just sort of a side comment that he costs out, but it was in the back of my mind. And then, um, that got me aware of just how much toxic substances were in products, which of course being creative. I started doing a little bit of research following and I realized a problem and three years later my brother in law was having trouble doing this reporting to the automotive industry for one of his clients, its biggest client and dangerous it, Mike, you’re an engineer, my guys are having trouble with this. You think you could do some work in the evenings on the side and help me out. How do you say no to family? Right. And so I jumped in, I took a training and started doing it and developed an act and back. This customer loved the work. And then the next thing I know his customer asked him, can you, would you mind if we contacted the guy who was helping you? Cause we got problems, we need help. And the next thing I knew instead of a sideline at night, uh, I decided to make this my day job.

Scott Luton (10:19):

Wow. So Michael, I’ll tell you to come back from that a huge disaster, uh, and, and become a successful entrepreneur. We’re going to have to dedicate a second episode just to talk about those leadership skills in that perspective because that would, yeah, that was spelled doom in the end for many folks that such a devastating setback. So we’re going to bring you back on for that, but let’s pivot the calls clearly that moment. And, and, and, uh, the couple of years that followed form the Genesis that led to RSJ technical consulting. So Greg, I know we’ve got some questions around his farm. Well, yeah, so I want to start with one thing and that is, I wonder if you ever circled back with that firefighter, um, to let them know the inspiration that they provided.

Michael Wurzman (11:14):

Well as total irony would have it about four years ago, he moved into the house right behind ours when I was still living in Texas and I did let them know the impact. He didn’t even remember the offhand comment. I just remembered him.

Scott Luton (11:33):

What is the chance of, yeah. So Michael, tell us a little bit about, I know your company has gone through a couple of stages, right? So can you tell us a little bit about what you do with, I guess today with RSJ technical consulting?

Michael Wurzman (11:53):

Okay. We started out, I started out doing, yeah, the services were contract with companies and actually looking at their data, collecting it from the supply chain, combining it, doing what was needed and passing along to their customers. And that was, did that for a number of years and realized that the data quality was really pretty bad at the start misses back around 2005 and that’s when I realized data had to become a process and it had to be something that we just didn’t say. If the person accepts, if the person who I gave it to accepted it, it must’ve been right. It must’ve been good enough for them. And so that was the first major change and I started realizing and put together in 2007 the model that this has to be part of the bigger environmental picture to really understand what you’re doing. And that was sort of like the next transformation of what and what’s happening. And that’s when I really start getting involved heavily with AIG. So initially. Yup.

Greg White (13:23):

So you work with, um, the, I am D S which is the international material data system formed by several of the German car makers, I believe. And it is that sort of the impetus for how you make this, um, industry, you know, kind of an industry wide standard or how does that play into that?

Michael Wurzman (13:54):

Okay. In the early days when I first started, we had a little bit with the IMDs system, which is a computer. Sure. It allows [inaudible] any company jail along the supply chain. But a good chunk of the industry was still using a spreadsheet approach, which had all kinds of issues, not only being, it could be eight to 10 times as long to handle any specific data requests. And as a person who was always fascinated by industrial engineering, um, obviously you want to push things towards more efficient processes and higher quality processes. And that’s when 2005 I came up and gave a presentation to what was then the IMDs steering IMDs advisory committee to the automotive steering committee out of the U S one data quality issues.

Greg White (14:57):

Got it.

Michael Wurzman (14:59):

And you know, the old saying, no good deed goes unpunished after presenting information like that. Of course, the expectation is to be involved totally and be part of the solution.

Greg White (15:13):

Right. That, and that is, that’s a good life lesson for people. So what, um, if, if you present a problem, be prepared to be a part of the solution, right? Or if you present, uh, information, uh, beep and show your skill, be prepared to have your talent co-opted. Um, yeah. So, so you are a, you call yourself managing director. I’m interested in, um, you know, how, how you, how you spend your day, um, you know, the managing director, CEO, president, whatever you call it, means a lot of different things for people. So, um, tell us a little bit about a day in the life of Michael wardsman, um, formerly known as Mike Weitzman. Again, part of your efficiency initiative, right? You mentioned it earlier, was to shorten your name, but I think you realize that for credibility purposes, Michael was, was more effective. Is that a fair estimation?

Michael Wurzman (16:27):

Right. The older you get, the more you listen sometimes to the device of your kids.

Greg White (16:33):

There you get an idea of a day in your life, you know, at RSJ,

Michael Wurzman (16:41):

okay, eight, the name that I’ve kept my firm, small people said, gee, why aren’t you doing stuff? We’re making all kinds of money on data collection. And my answer has been because it shouldn’t be done the way we’re currently doing it right now. People outsource it. They, you know, I’ll be honest, that’s where I make most of the money between that and training. But it should be part of the core competence in integrated from the design process on in a company. And so with that approach,

Michael Wurzman (17:22):

that’s, you know, this is probably a lousy business model, trying to teach people to be self confident and do the service that you provide, but it’s what has to happen for the future. So in the course of my day, I’ve got, I handle certain customers with data requests direct, I like to handle the difficult ones, the ones that are outside the norm so that I can continually be training and learning and finding out more. So I have the firsthand experience seeing what’s going on so I can better advise. You can give advice and that takes a chunk of the day, needless to say, okay, emails, all the correspondence and the rest it’s a and overhead, I don’t like it, but I probably spent Oh good hour or two a day researching, just keeping up where things are going, where the trends are, tying it into what are the issues being had by companies looking at where we need to be going in trying to understand and synthesize the advice. A portion of my day obviously is spent sales working on bringing in business

Greg White (18:40):

and then

Michael Wurzman (18:41):

uh, taking care of the folks that are working with me to be there to handle any technical issues or questions that come up.

Greg White (18:49):

Do you really want to spending a good portion of your day trying to solve this? Okay. And every day life may be trying to solve this data collection problems. So I have to ask, and I have to ask this, and that is what do you see as the biggest issue and what do you see as the biggest opportunity? In turn, you said that with the way we do data collection is wrong and that’s a bold, and I love that statement. I can’t argue that by the way, but what do you see as the biggest wrong and what would you see as the biggest opportunity for improving it?

Michael Wurzman (19:30):

It’s the biggest strong is that the attitude throughout our whole industry and supply chain is we pull data, we ask and say, I need you to supply it. It must be part of this as opposed to companies

Greg White (19:45):

having the data

Michael Wurzman (19:47):

done in a way that can provide a competitive advantage. Now

Greg White (19:54):

going back,

Michael Wurzman (19:55):

I have a MBA in sales and marketing and I realized the integration of that with technical and as a salesperson you want to sell quality and value

Michael Wurzman (20:07):

and we’re no longer just selling products in the marketplace as a company, but all this data is required to be part of the product to make the sale. So why shouldn’t we be looking at is one and looking at approach that creates the data set that has enough value that it will be part of the company [inaudible] sales process. Got it. In which case you don’t have to worry about collecting data because companies are competing to give you data and make sure their data, this is the same quality, they compete on the hard. And that’s a whole fundamental change in thinking and the paradigm shift that I’m trying to get across to industry.

Greg White (21:00):

So, so considering all of that, um, I, I think of, I’m, I’m always trying to kind of understand the superpowers of companies or people or whatever super powers I define as if I’m walking down the hall or, uh, I would, I would ordinarily say in my business, but right now let’s say in my home or my home office or at my dining room table and I have a pain that is weighing heavily on me as a leader.

Michael Wurzman (21:34):

Mmm.

Greg White (21:35):

Or, um, yeah, let, let’s say I have that pain. What are the key words, um, or the core pain that I’m feeling that helps me understand that you and RSJ technical can, can, um, address or solve my problem?

Michael Wurzman (21:57):

Nope. One of the key pains that you’re doing this, the all this IMDs the reporting work, that’s an expense that’s bearing on me, especially in today’s times where with all the business disruption, it’s part that doesn’t go away. That weaknesses see an economic value too and people are looking at how do I do this cheaper? Yeah, and my how is looking at this and saying you’re not, you’re framing the question wrong. It’s about how do I get value that lets me grow my company and make money by doing this. And so I’d like to tell people get to that point. Now, key thing that I like to pride my company on is when we do training, when we work with companies we don’t want to show here is how you do it. We want to convey an understanding of the Y of the importance so that there is a framework to build once thinking in one’s approach on after we work with someone, they understand the bigger picture, how it fits in so it can solve this problem and look at it as an opportunity to make money instead of a cost they have to cut because times are so tough.

Greg White (23:35):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know, your, your approach goes to the, my, one of my foundational beliefs that

Scott Luton (23:46):

is I’m collecting or sharing or accumulating data really has to be for a gold-based purpose, not for reporting obligation. And it sounds to me that you’re driving your customers more towards that direction, right? Know what you want and then what data gets you there.

Michael Wurzman (24:10):

Right now, after that salient event with my house and learning about toxic substances, I become passionate. In fact, some people say overly passionate about wanting to see the change occur to get these toxic substances with many of which we don’t even know are toxic yet out of our products and out of the environment so that we can improve the health of the generations to follow. I used to save my kids. Now I say to my grandkids.

Scott Luton (24:45):

Yeah, so, so Michael, I know that your firm works with OEMs and, and a variety of suppliers across all tiers to help them comply with all the regulations out there. I’m really looking to lower short term compliance, risk and costs and a lot more than that question for you though. Uh, in this day and age where we have so much data at our fingertips, right. It’s the information age for sure. Is it, um, do you find that in your work that you’re doing with these groups, is there more or less transparency to getting to the information that they need to understand that impacts their risk and compliance?

Michael Wurzman (25:27):

There has been a little more transparency. It’s still, it’s going to be changing dramatically because when you look at the whole picture, we are in a situation where not just getting toxic substance out of exposure, we have to look at where the whole drive is coming out of Europe with the circular economy and being able to make sure that not only our products safe from exposure in use and the chemicals and manufacturing are safe while being handled in use. But the final products that we manufacture at their end of life, the materials that make it up are reusable into new products and then taking a look to try to make it where we are looking at that as well as energy consume, greenhouse gas effects, water and the rest. So we have a sustainable structure manufacturing wise right now. So much gets thrown away or could be recycled, but it’s not that it’s not going to be sustainable for the long term.

Scott Luton (26:41):

Right. Yeah. We have a of work to do to really make strides towards that more circular economy model, including as you alluded to, um, you know, taking that CE proactively into product design well upstream so that we have more options, um, in the life. Um, all right. So Michael, we’re going to pivot away from your good work that you and your team are doing at RSJ technical consulting. And I want to go broader with this next question. You know, obviously the world’s changed a lot has been changing the last few months globally, but here in the States, you know, by the time this interview publishes, you know, last two months have been extremely challenging in this, if you, as you look at the global supply chain industry and to end and then the whole circular economy, what trend or development or issue really stands out in your mind that, that you and your team are spending a lot of time on right now?

Michael Wurzman (27:37):

Right now, big issue has been with the implementation of the framework for a, to achieve a circular economy. The first step in the EU was an update of the waste framework directive, which is requiring additional regions hoarding into a database in Europe by the end of the year. And while automotive is ahead of virtually all industries and having that data, we still need work on reformatting and structuring it and with my clients that are outside automotive, many ignored it because the legislation wasn’t being enforced and they’re now realizing, wait a second, we have got to meet this empathy, your deadline. Much of our supply chain is shut down. People are not able to get the data, get what we need, and yet we have this looming deadline and what we are trying to work through is how you meet that goal and we’re not even sure what the date may be.

Michael Wurzman (28:46):

There’s always a chance because of the virus going around that it may get delayed and give us more time, but in reality it’s not giving us any more time because we’re losing time due to people not being able to function, do their jobs, collect and gather and report the type of data we need. And this is really creating a lot of angst in the industry and that’s what we need to help them realize their solutions or ways to work during this period. How to structure it, how to target because saw many clients I talked to award, what happens if I miss the deadline? And the answer is quite simply this is part of going to be part of customs. You just don’t sell into that market. And that’s a scary thought, especially when business is down.

Greg White (29:47):

Yeah. And I think, look, I think we’ve seen, um, that the spirit of, of government right now anyway is, is to, um, give some leeway in terms of these deadlines. But those can’t take, you can’t count on that. Right. And, um, you know, what we’ve seen companies do is to

Michael Wurzman (30:12):

inquire now,

Greg White (30:16):

right inquire earlier. And what we’ve found is that the agencies that are responding are more than happy to identify a small personal, um, experience. Here in Georgia. We have what we call the birthday penalty, which is that your license plates come due the month of your birthday. And, um, and um, they have delayed that for two months. So you’re getting some leeway there, but it wasn’t really announced you had to ask and I think companies will do that.

Michael Wurzman (30:49):

We’ll need that in order to make sure that they’re in compliance. Right now we have to keep in mind the EU has said the assumption, we’ve had the full data in the structure they want now going on seven years and because they haven’t checked for it and it’s level, there’s an assumption that you shouldn’t have to be collecting it in a crisis mode. Right, or reformatting or enhancing it or structuring it. Yeah.

Greg White (31:18):

Yeah. So we’re much better with rules and steps and plans and compliance in Europe than we are in the States. Undoubtedly, GDPR is a great example. The privacy initiative that they have for individuals is a great example and there was a similar scramble in the States to

Michael Wurzman (31:35):

why was that? Right now there is, well, we’re scrambling on that. We have to keep in mind there’s a clause in all this European legislation that it’s designed to make the European economy stronger over the longterm. Now in a downturn where everything could be checked at customs, it’s not beyond the pale to look that for product entering the EU. It could be used as somewhat of a trade barrier. Yep. And it’d be hard to say it’s a trade barrier when it’s something you supposedly were already doing for seven years. Yeah.

Greg White (32:19):

Yeah, no doubt. Well, we’ve definitely got to pay strong attention to that. And I know that you and I know that AIG are, uh, and other organizations are, are contributing and that’s part of the reason that we’re talking is to get the industry aware of this. You might or might not be aware, Michael, that this event, the AIAG, um, summit is now a, is now no charge to attend virtually. And so we’re, I think the hope is that more and more people from the industry will attend. So maybe let’s shift gears a little bit towards that. And you had shared some interesting thoughts about the value of AIG and organizations like that, but tell us a little bit about your personal feelings about, uh, the automotive industry action group and what you get out of it. And you know, what you see as the value of an organization like this? Well,

Michael Wurzman (33:17):

the beauty of AIG is they’re structured to be a collaborative effort towards problem solving. And I’ve come in with my expertise working to help solve and drive part of the problem, you know, private solution to problems that I see. But also by getting involved, and I’ve been very heavily involved now for a number of years. I can participate in a number of additional work groups that I may not have time to take a leadership role or begin, but I can learn through my participation. And what I found is when you act, if we parked, I just hate and contribute in a group. And then our and other ones you can learn and you actually can learn through the sharing of information even more than you contribute. And so even though I spend what a large amount of time in various meetings, activities with AIG, it is dramatically helped me in putting the entire picture and the understanding for being able to direct and guide people to solutions and work through an organization. The way it’s structured, like AIG I think can be invaluable to companies.

Greg White (34:35):

It’s the old adage, right? You get tenfold what you give essentially

Michael Wurzman (34:42):

absolutely within this organization. So,

Greg White (34:46):

so to our listeners that you can of course learn more about AIG at AIG dot. Or we’re talking about the automotive industry action group and, uh, Michael, I want to make sure that our listeners know how to connect with you and, and learn more about your firm. So please share.

Michael Wurzman (35:03):

Okay. The best way is we have a web [email protected] and from there there are links where you can get in touch with us and we encourage you to do so. And we’ll be glad to talk to you about how we can help, how we can try to teach companies how they can turn this into a competitive, the advantage to grow in a market, especially one of uncertainty.

Scott Luton (35:38):

Great point. You know, uh, Greg as, um, we learned Michael’s story today and as much of the story we can get to and in 40 minutes or so, um, to big takeaways for a number one to turn up a personal trategy in a tragedy into a business success and to do so without, you know, really, um, drowning in what’s, what’s devastating, right? When you lose your house and everything you own. So that really sticks out in my mind. And then secondly, it’s clear. No one is unmistakable. Michael loves what he does. He’s got a passion for helping companies get better, helping companies get the information and look for doing the research. I mean, he was born to do this, Greg.

Greg White (36:26):

Well, like I like a lot of people who have these kinds of gifts. Um, the, the solution finds you in a way. I mean, he presented so much value. Michael, you presented so much value to your brother-in-law’s client that you know, they, they basically pulled you into your business after someone who didn’t even remember the comment that they made, which is so often, it’s amazing how often somebody changes somebody’s life. And it’s amazingly meaningful to that person. But as you said, a castoff comment for that person, just the string of events that led you here and the passion and, and skill that you present here is inspiring. Absolutely. And it’s hard to say that about data, Michael, but it’s true. It is. It is an amazing story. So

Scott Luton (37:17):

thank you Michael. Thank you for taking time out of your, a, of a busy environment for everyone right now. Uh, we’ve been chatting with Michael wardsman, founder and president at RSJ technical consulting, which of course is he shared stands for his three children, Rachel, Stephanie and Joshua. Michael, thanks so much for your time. Thank you. Pleasure doing this. Terrific. Stay safe and we will be reconnecting with you shortly. And we’re going to wrap up here. So stay with us just as we wrap up this episode. Again, you can connect with, uh, Michael wardsman on LinkedIn or check out, they’re [email protected]. A big thanks to Michael and his team. Uh, Greg, another great episode. Um, you know, I loved, I love this is kind of a different angle than a lot of our recent episodes, right? Yeah,

Greg White (38:05):

yeah, it is. And I, you know, and I think it’s, um, it’s interesting look like we’ve talked about Jim and Tanya and the crew at AIG. They provide a tremendous service to the automotive industry, obviously a difficult time for that industry now. And, um, and you know, for everyone of course, but having groups like this and having people like Michael and Jim and Tanya, uh, dedicated to your success, I think bodes for the industry.

Scott Luton (38:36):

Agreed. Great point. And on that, we’re going to wrap up here today, uh, to our audience. Be sure to check out a wide variety of industry thought leadership at supply chain now, radio.com Fondas and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from. Check out our upcoming webinar on global visibility, uh, that’s coming up, uh, well here in mid April. I hope you’ll join us for that on behalf of our entire team. Scott Luton. Wish you a successful week ahead. Stay safe, don’t panic. Please follow the expert advice, precautions that have been disseminated, uh, and know this, that brighter days. Lie ahead. See you next time here on Supply Chain Now.