Intro – Amanda Luton (00:00:05):

It’s time for supply chain. Now broadcasting live from the supply chain capital of the country. Atlanta, Georgia heard around the world. Supply chain. Now spotlights the best in all things. Supply chain, the people, the technologies, the best practices and the critical issues of the day. And now here are your hosts.

Scott Luton (00:00:29):

Hey, good morning, Scott Luton here with you on supply chain. Now, welcome back to the show on today’s show today, we’ve got two outstanding global leaders in supply chain. We’re gonna be talking a lot about leadership. We’re gonna be talking a lot about some of the most pressing business challenges in the world today. So stay tuned as we look to increase your supply chain leadership IQ on quick programming note. Hey, if you, if you enjoy today’s interview, be sure to check out our podcasts wherever you get your podcasts from be sure to subscribe. So you don’t miss a single thing. I want to welcome in my fearless esteem. Coaster day, Greg white cereal, supply chain tech entrepreneur, and trusted advisor to all Greg, how you doing? I’m doing great. We are truly global today. Aren’t we? We are. We, uh, we’re keeping, we’re keeping folks up late, getting them up early.

Scott Luton (00:01:18):

It’s incredible working across these times zones, you know, to get all these perspectives. It’s part of your efforts at delivering on being a supply chain adjutant, right? I mean that, yeah. I ask everyone that’s right. Well with no further ado, let’s welcome. In our future guests here today, really excited about today’s conversation. We have Dominic is Winkle’s executive manager for people that deliver, which is organization work, learn a lot more about is allied with UNICEF, which everybody has heard of of course, right. And our dear friend, Jenny Froome chief operating officer with Saint pics, which is doing some big things in Africa and beyond when it comes to supply chain. So good morning, Dominic and Jenny.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:01:57):

Yeah. Good morning. Thank you for having us.

Scott Luton (00:02:01):

You bet. Uh, well, Dominic, your ears probably have been burning cause Jenny was, was singing your praises earlier this week. So we look forward to learning a lot more about you. And of course our listeners have heard from Jenny before and learn more about st. Pics. It’s always a pleasure. Um, this interview today comes on the heels of our third edition, our Eastern hemisphere edition of our supply chain trivia match, which was, was this fun as hell guys. I really enjoyed it. And you know, it was a time in these challenging times where you can kind of take a step back from the edge and just enjoy company for an hour, you know? Yeah, absolutely. It was great. Alright. So let’s get to know you both a little better, Dominique. We’re going to start with you. So tell us, you know, where are you from and give us an anecdote or two about your upbringing?

Dominique Zwinkels (00:02:50):

Um, so actually I was born in the Netherlands. Um, I am, I have a Dutch passport and a us passport, um, and were, but when I was two years, I moved down to South America. We lived in a number of different countries,

Dominique Zwinkels (00:03:05):

uh, Peru and Colombia, Venezuela, and, um, uh, went back to Holland at some point when I was 16 and finished high school there and then came to the U S uh, when I was, uh, let me think that was 23, 24. Wow. And then I stayed, it was really the, it was the work. And of course I met my husband. Mmm. And then I stayed and, uh, I basically, I have a, um, for the past 23 years, I’ve been working in international development, um, in nutrition, food security, strategic planning, both that sort of small NGOs, nonprofit organizations, as well as, um, sort of larger multilateral organizations. Mmm. But now for the past 13 years in health supply chain management.

Scott Luton (00:03:59):

Yeah. And we’ve seen a lot of, a lot of innovation in that space, right? Yeah.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:04:03):

Oh yeah, absolutely. So, uh, prior to my current job, um, I worked, uh, for on the HIV AIDS supply chain, um, with John Snow international at the partnership for supply chain management and, uh, where we procured and delivered essential life saving medicines for the HIV AIDS programs that are funded by the U S government, I’m all over the world. So there’s a lot of innovation that you’ve seen through that program. Um, sadly it ended, uh, there and sort of, but 2015, 2016, but then I got this wonderful opportunity to move on and be the executive manager for the people that deliver. So, and that’s, yeah, that’s what I do now. But I’ll tell you a little bit more about people that really run a bit,

Scott Luton (00:04:47):

that’s not much, is it a world traveler if I counted, right. You lived in something like five or six countries by the time you were 16, is that

Dominique Zwinkels (00:04:55):

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I did. That was, uh, those formative years really made me who I am. That’s why I actually have an MBA. And I, uh, but I never actually worked in private business. I just went off to doing more of this international development work,

Scott Luton (00:05:13):

which is, is, is absolutely critical, but I’m very jealous of the international experience you had in those formative years. That’s, you know, that that’s gotta be such an advantage, especially in this day and age where business is global, it’ll always be global moving forward. And of course supply chain is global. So we look forward to dive more into that experience here momentarily, Dominique.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:05:33):

Yeah. Thank you.

Scott Luton (00:05:35):

All right. So Jenny, our listeners should be familiar. You, you came on and, and we interviewed you about it. It’s been about a year ago. I don’t know if you, if that sounds about right. Yeah, it was pre me. I know that this is I’m really dying to hear this. And that’s really, that’s really how we measure our age as a company, uh, BG

Scott Luton (00:05:58):

and after G R a G. So before Greg and after Greg, but, uh, Jenny, tell us, tell us where you’re from and give us an anecdote or two about your upbringing.

Jenny Froome (00:06:07):

Okay. So I’m originally English or from England. And I have lived also pretty much like Dominique before I was 11. We had lived in five different countries. Um, and I was sentenced boarding school in England from my very nice existence in Australia. I went to blink, miserable, gray England to an all girls school where I spent seven years in seven Oaks. Um, but I had before then lived in, in Kenya and Ghana from an African perspective. I now live in South Africa. I’ve lived in the British Virgin islands, Japan and Australia. And then obviously England. So very, like I said, in the last, well, I say it was a very privileged upbringing. My dad was a banker, um, and we traveled the world, but the downside was boarding in school. Um, the upside was, I met a lot of people and I sore a lot of the world, um, and learn to loss about different cultures, particularly living in places like Japan, which was such vast contrast from, so we moved from Japan to Kenya, which was quite a, quite a change.

Jenny Froome (00:07:25):

Yeah. So I moved down here. I went to live in Kenya, met my husband and we moved down here and we have been here since 1995 and we basically called South Africa. South Africa is so my son, our son is South African. He was born here. Um, and that’s really what we, what we, where we live. Um, and I’ve worked with safe picks. Now we realize today it’s been 24 years that we have been managing the same pics annual conference. This is the first time in all that time that we haven’t had the conference. It would normally be this time of year. So the site, this gaping void in my life at the moment, and I didn’t know whether to miss it or to be glad.

Scott Luton (00:08:15):

Well, you know, I think a lot of people are feeling that as well, Greg, I feel so inadequate, uh, in terms of my lack of international travels. I mean, I’m very jealous of the backgrounds we have here. Uh, and, and some of the, the cultural transitions that Jenny was alluding to and how to navigate those at an early age, what a great advantage and, and to enjoy them, experience them, you know, I’m so very jealous over here, Jenny. Um, so Greg, let’s dive more into the organizations themselves.

Jenny Froome (00:08:45):

Yeah. I got a couple of questions I have to ask first. Okay.

Scott Luton (00:08:50):

Um, the Dutch are, are well known for having a lot of language and

Scott Luton (00:08:56):

as you’ve lived in so many countries, I have to ask, you have to, you have to speak Dutch, English and Spanish. Is there anything else that you

Dominique Zwinkels (00:09:04):

1. Yeah. Well, I’m fluent in those three, for sure. Uh, I know over the years, you know, I I’ve dabbled in French and Portuguese, um, but not, not fluent that’s for sure.

Scott Luton (00:09:17):

So, um, this is a common joke in Europe. Do you know what you call somebody? Who’s only speaks one language and doesn’t own a passport, an American. Very good. Um, so, uh, well, yeah, so let’s do, let’s talk about your organization’s. Wow. What an opportunity to be world traveled and such early ages, because it really imprints. Hmm. [inaudible] the value of diversity and [inaudible] breadth of knowledge and a global perspective on you. So it’s interesting, um, that you continue that in the work that you do. So, um, I’m going to start, I’m going to start with Dominique, let’s start with you and talk about, um, you know, what your organization is all about.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:10:10):

Sure. Of course. Mmm Hmm. So I’d say, let’s start with people that liver was established in 2011. Mmm. There was a world health organization conference, uh, specifically, um, bringing together sort of actors, uh, that had seen the need to invest in the health supply chain workforce. Um, cause they saw that there was this huge gap investments were not being made. Mmm. We didn’t really have the skilled and qualified personnel to do this work in Africa. And so it was at this conference in 2011 where sort of 79 institutions came together and said, we’re going to pledge our support or action, um, to strengthen the capacity of the health supply chain work. But not just that, but also to promote of the professionalization of the supply chain role in the health system. Yeah. And before that, Mmm, the, the supply chain, um, okay. Is, you know, they saw it as important, but not really that important investments were not being made.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:11:13):

And so it was from that point on that the people that his liver was established. So it’s really sort of based on the premise that if you don’t have the right people with the right skills running supply chains, it was sort of supported, um, by appropriate human resource systems. We don’t have well-functioning supply chains. And so over the course of say the last nine, 10 years now, and we’ve moved from being a very heavy sort of global advocacy initiative to now being the technical leader in human resources for health supply chain management. Um, and we do this, we do by advocating for a systematic approach to interventions and human resources. Uh, basically these are there to sort of improve the demand and supply for qualified professionals. And then we have, um, over time we’ve developed one goal and that really is to create a competency, an adequately staffed supply chain workforce that’s deployed across both the public and the private sectors.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:12:19):

Mmm it’s really not just only the public sector that runs the health system in most of these countries, private sectors become increasingly important. Mmm Oh, I did want to mention that sort of our unique feature is that, uh, that our member countries and organizations, they are sort of what we call the vehicles that provide the services and funding. Um, so we’re just, um, we’re a small initiative, a small secretary at, uh, but we are sort of dependent of our coalition organizations to be, uh, those that are providing the services and funding. And so we then build on that experience to advocate for change at the global and the country level. Mmm. And that really results in a stronger and more sustainable system for developing recruiting, and then also retaining qualified a supply chain work. Of course. Um, so we, um, we’re, um, Mmm, we’re a coalition right now. There’s 21 different organizations that are part of it, of the people that deliver, uh, of what, you know, say fix is, uh, is one of the organizations Jenny and I worked together for quite a few years now, really closely. I really depended on safe sex too, to reach our community and build on the strengths that we’ve developed over the years.

Scott Luton (00:13:43):

Um, so you’re, you’re dealing with the governmental agencies, but also professional supply chain organizations as well to kind of bring all that together.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:13:52):

That’s correct. Yeah. We have a seven different constituencies that are part of our group and that includes governments Mmm. Uh, professional associations, but also, you know, academic institutions and okay. Private sector. Um, you know, the, the big universities are part of us as well. Um, and of course the aid agencies and donors as well,

Scott Luton (00:14:16):

is it, is it operations initiative and enablement initiative? I mean, are you,

Dominique Zwinkels (00:14:22):

it’s more enablement I would say than occupations. Yeah. We’re not, we’re not supposed to be what we call implementing anything we’re supposed to be giving sort of private. Okay. Sorry, not private. Mmm. We were supposed to be giving sort of, uh, the resources, the tools to help, um, organizations build the workforce in country.

Scott Luton (00:14:44):

Got it.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:14:45):

I wanted to mention as well that, you know, we have a home within UNICEF, you know, the United nations children’s fund, uh, which is responsible or providing humanitarian development aid to children worldwide. And within UNICEF, we’re part of the supply chain strengthening center, uh, where I have colleagues that work to do sort of strengthened the national supply chains, uh, for vaccines and nutrition in those countries. Um, and of course, right now during this pandemic, they are working really hard to build resilience national systems, to be able to come back even stronger.

Jenny Froome (00:15:21):

Yeah. You mentioned that as well. This is a good time for that to retool and recognize, you know, weak spots and opportunities for improvement. So fantastic. If our listeners are tired of hearing the world, the word resiliency, they better book Lynn because next few months, if not the next few years, really all about making our global supply chains resilient. And that order is very accurate for that. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Well, that’s, that’s a great cause. Mmm. I feel like we could use some of that enablement here. I mean, that’s really a universal cause obviously, you know, highly needed in Africa, incredibly valuable to be able to get healthcare supplies and, and what not to the, so the population there and to help some of these, um, organizations and governments to be more effective in doing that.

Jenny Froome (00:16:25):

Um, all right. So Jenny, so tell us a little bit maybe about how you work with Dominic and also, you know, what, what safe is all about and [inaudible], um, you know, despite your name, it is a total Africa effort, right? So share a little bit of that with us. We’ve been around for 60 years. So I think it’s at 60 it’s a long time. Well, before your time. So thanks. And I’ve actually been involved with st. Pics, like I was saying for over 24 years, since about 2004 on the actual understanding them and understanding supply chain management and the importance of it. And also the importance of it as a recognized profession now has evolved into, is it the organization that wants to, I hate that word. And I don’t mean that from a political point of view, but just from the rest of the community and from the industries that all have their own supply chains to recognize supply chain professionals for the valuable yeah.

Jenny Froome (00:17:49):

Work that they do. And to understand that supply chain, supply chain management, if done effectively can be hugely beneficial to organizations bottom line and ultimately to global economies. And I think that, that, you know, every, every dark cloud has a single room, silver lining, and hopefully this will be the silver lining of the COVID-19 crisises that supply chain management is being talked about, and people are wanting to understand what it is. Um, it’s no longer there. So what do you do? You know, it’s supply chain management, you know what that is, and then they go and talk to somebody else cause they you’re really very boring. And, and that’s really, that’s, that’s our mission. And our mission is to gather like minded people together. And I mentioned it all started in South Africa. Um, and that’s really where our core focus has been, but gradually it became more and more important and obvious that we needed to get involved with other countries on the continent.

Jenny Froome (00:18:58):

And that’s one of the things that also you have to keep getting that message across is that Africa is just not one country. Africa is, as we know from the quiz yesterday, 54 different and very different countries that have different cultures, different languages, different challenges, different supply chain challenges. And so it’s, it’s understanding that no one country on the continent has all the answers and that we have to learn from each other and back in when, but when, uh, people that deliver was being bombed it, or even to before it was, we had a meeting with some people who came because they wanted warehouse management training. And, um, it was that conversation. Why would you come to us? Because we deal just in the private sector, what would public sector want to know about private sector? And they felt the same with public sector. We don’t need to know about private sector and that was years and years and years ago.

Jenny Froome (00:20:00):

And really we’ve never, we’ve never crossed the line. Mmm. And now from thanks to, I think the public health sector, the conversation is becoming louder and louder and louder that supply chain management is supply chain management. It doesn’t matter whether it’s public sector, well, private sector. That’s okay. It has to be done professionally. And that’s really the, the message. And so, um, I, I, I can, Dominique contacted me and people that deliver have always had a vision that associations are brilliant community builders. And why do associations all work in silos? And she was speaking my language and talking how you need to be able to educate people and we need to be able to build a community. And that community needs to cross over from all industries and also from profits private and public sector. So yeah, immediately, really?

Jenny Froome (00:21:10):

Yeah. The board have been actively involved and we are currently involved in a, in a project. Yeah. Is specifically around professionalizing. Yeah. How long has that partnership been in place again, Jenny, since he has that four years. Yeah. We met at the end of 2017, right. 2018. She came and joined us at a board meeting that we had to the name. Yeah. That’s when we solidified it. Awesome. Those are both really, both of you have really fascinating perspectives. And one, one part of that we’ve seen play out in that is this notion that, and public have different needs. They certainly have different methodologies. Right. But, but again, a professional supply chain is it’s still required in both places. We’ve seen it. And I think this is something we need to tackle as supply chain professionals. We’ve seen it even greater silos within, we got a question the other day.

Jenny Froome (00:22:18):

Do you guys talk about supply chain or do you talk about manufacturing? And we’ve heard people say, Hey, we’re in procurement procurement. That’s not really supply chain. Right. I think supply chain as the umbrella, under which the movement, the placement, the purchasing and sale of goods, everything under that kind of falls under that umbrella. I wonder what you perspective on that. I completely agree, because we always have to educate people on this and we talk about end to end supply chain. So when I talk about the health supply chain workforce, I talk about procurement specialists, a part of that, but also at the last mile where doing the distribution. So the transportation personnel. So it’s really, it’s quite a large gamut look different. Okay. Mmm. Pieces in different, in different workers. Yes. Very holistic circular. These days when we first started out, we were so gung ho to promote safe and the safe IX brand, and everybody must know what safe exists.

Jenny Froome (00:23:25):

And then we realized that they don’t even understand what supply chain management. So our narrative has changed hugely in the last, I’d say in the last five years where we realized that we’ve been selling something, not selling, but we’ve been some things, but people don’t understand what their parcels. Right. And I think that, I think that it goes back to the conversations of the perennial question. Should I do sips? Or should I do apex? It’s the same thing. It’s like, it depends on what your skill is, what your interest is. One does. Yeah. Exclude the other to the point that we all have to know how to work together in all of this to make a true supply chain effect.

Scott Luton (00:24:14):

Yep. All right. So let’s shift, let’s shift gears a little bit here. Uh, there’s lots of good news despite the current environment, if you look forward and two of the pieces of good news that, that we have talked a lot about in recent weeks is number one to two. Both of your points is that the global supply chain profession has gotten only a seat at the table, which we’ve seen for the last couple of years, but it’s more visible and is on the tips of tongues of consumers that have never uttered the words more than perhaps ever before. And that’s great for the profession. That’s great for bringing top talent in. It’s great for moving the industry forward. Many other things, secondly, is, um, as we’ve heard from a variety of guests, as we’ve learned and experienced ourselves, there’s gonna be a ton of real meaningful innovation action oriented innovation.

Scott Luton (00:25:01):

That’s also going to be moving the industry forward and really global business forward because of the pandemic and because of some of these other, um, associated challenges and recent, recent months and weeks, and that’s, that needs to happen. Number one, but number two, that, you know, um, it’s one thing to struggle and it’s one thing to get, you know, punched, knocked out by Mike Tyson and fall to the mat, but then get back up and, and, and be in position to serve the consumer and conserve, uh, and serve the global business community better than ever before. And that’s what we’re, I believe we’re going to be seeing. So with that said, and Dominic, I want to start with you your, if you had to point to one single biggest lesson learned from the pandemic, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be supply chain be broader business, but what would that be for you?

Dominique Zwinkels (00:25:52):

Well, I do want to go to the supply chain, um, because cause as you know, you know, I’ve always known the supply chain was important. You know, it’s supply chains. I, for a long time, I’ve been advocating that it’s a key enabler for all health programs. So really making those health programs possible in most countries. Cause you need with this, all the supplies that come in. Um, but you know, this was really reiterated by, um, Tedros dr. Tinder, a director general for the world health organization and one of his media briefings briefing, sorry, in April, he said that the supply chain may need to cover more than 30% of the world’s needs right now. Yeah. And that just says a lot to me. It’s right there. The supply chain is now at the forefront. It is more evident than ever before. Mmm well, you may have

Scott Luton (00:26:44):

the slogan we often use in, in our, in our work is no product, no program. Well, that’s just right now, that’s the situation. Okay. The COVID-19 pandemic has put increasing pressure on health supply chains and we now need more than ever being able to prevent and detect and respond to shortages. Mmm. And of course we know as well that the movement of goods across global supply chains has also been disrupted with flights being canceled, container ships, not being able to move and then transportation and country, uh, borders being closed. And so, you know, the operating environment very, very complex. So yeah, I guess the one thing for me is that it’s just directly relevant to my work when DEMEC continues to disrupt supply chains across the globe. Uh, it is more now, now more than ever that we need to really stand behind what the supply chain workforce we’ll call, sir.

Scott Luton (00:27:44):

Well, what we’ve been sort of advocating. Um, and I just recently wrote a brief on this is that, uh, we need to see them as essential health workers. You know, we, we talk about Mmm, our nurses and those that are at the front line and our doctors. Okay. But the, these, these help these please health supply chain workforce [inaudible], or are the ones that are going to be providing the vaccine or the treatment when it becomes available. So we need them to be able to, we need them there. We need to safeguard them. Okay. And so, you know, that’s the one thing that I’ve learned through this, Hey, Dominic, you’re fitting right in as expected. I mean, we share that so much. What you just shared there, our take is very inspirational and very invigorating and our industry needs to hear it because they are so many components of global supply chain is on a noble mission.

Scott Luton (00:28:37):

And this whole notion of no product, no program should really speak and tug on heartstrings because that is the role of supply chain plays. And we’ve touted for months about the need to a course, we love on our medical professionals there so much bravery and courage, courageous stories there. But man, the supply chain workforce has kept things moving. And whether as Greg likes to point out the folks at the registers that are, that are perhaps at most, um, at the, at highest risk, right? Cause they’re interacting while these folks in close quarters or thinkers or Packers and fulfillment centers or you name it, chart drivers, you name it. So I love what you shared there. Jenny, I want to pose the same question to you. What do you think of, and then we’re, as we talked about pre-show, we’re all chomping at the bit we hear from our audience all the time of ready to kind of break through into the aftermath is what Gartner’s referring to the new normal, which is, is less of a cliche than the words new normal, and perhaps, but what’s the, your single biggest lesson learned from the pandemic.

Scott Luton (00:29:41):

Mmm. The community

Jenny Froome (00:29:42):

is vital. So that it’s, it’s as simple as that, I’ve always been a people person. I’ve never been an academic. And I think that that’s for me, but just this sheer example of the strengths of the community that we’ve spent so long building and watching how people have pulled together to support each other, but also to share that experiences, their skills, their knowledge it’s been outstanding. And I think that that’s, you know, every, every more every, and every, every crisis, that’s the first thing people say. Um, and this for me has been so rewarding. Well, my psych realizing not realizing a life’s work, that sounds a bit dramatic, but it is, it is almost that because yeah, the relationships that we’ve been building for the last, however many years, we’ve been able to pick up the phone and say, so, and so could you please help such and such? And yeah, the connections that we’ve been able to make, I have potentially been, been life saving money, saving all sorts of different things. So that for me has definitely been the, the, the real sort of bright light spotlight to the whole thing. And the, and the lesson that I’ve learned,

Scott Luton (00:30:57):

love that you got to D I kind, I always forget who this quote is attributed to, but you got to dig your well before you’re thirsty and build an investor network before you, uh, you know, ever need those relationships because during these challenging times, that’s when they really can, can I show the value and, and keep things moving. Greg? I know we want to switch gears a little bit here.

Jenny Froome (00:31:19):

Yeah.

Scott Luton (00:31:21):

Mmm. Yeah. Um, although that’s a pretty poignant discussion, so I need to absorb that for a second. So, um, dig your well before you’re thirsty. I know it was said in a Harvey McKay book. Yep. It was the title of a Harvey McKay book, but swim with the sharks without being eaten alive. You’re as good as Malcolm. Yeah. I never even went to Malcolm. How about that though? He, Malcolm might prove me wrong. Um, it might’ve been said before that. Yeah. So, Mmm. Let’s talk about, Mmm. You all have such a, uh, an incredible grasp on where the supply chain is and where it needs to be going. So I’d love to hear, you know,

Jenny Froome (00:32:09):

if you look into your crystal ball,

Scott Luton (00:32:13):

a topic maybe for now, or maybe into the future that has your attention the most right now, Dominic, let’s start with you. So tell me something that has your attention right now, and maybe it’s not even supply chain, but you’re kind of tracking right now.

Jenny Froome (00:32:28):

Yeah, no, that’s interesting. Um, we talked, you know, we talked a little bit about, uh, private sector and public sector earlier, and I think what I am talking right now is, um,

Dominique Zwinkels (00:32:42):

uh, as we are starting to merge those two within the health supply chains and in Africa, we’re seeing that we need to bring to light the building capacity and new skills. Hmm. Okay. Specifically when it comes to outsourcing and contracting, uh, it’s a contract between public and private sector, um, operators. So that’s a really big thing that I’ve been looking at. Um, but there’s also sort of, we need to build capacity and data science and analytics, um, as well as sort of monitoring the supply chain performance. Um, so I’m, I’m constantly sort of, I’m trying to figure out, Mmm, what are the different courses that are being taught in this? Where do we actually need to build new content as well? How can we sort of advocate for that? So that’s sort of more of on a sort of professional, no doubt as to what I’m tracking, but of course, on a, on a, on a personal note, very much looking at the development of a vaccine and the implications of that course on the global supply chain, because once we know there’s one available, you know, how do you make it equitable so that everybody can access it?

Dominique Zwinkels (00:33:57):

How do you ramp up manufacturing as fast as possible? So those are things that are, that are, that are keeping me awake.

Scott Luton (00:34:05):

Yeah. Those are, those are a couple of really big things. One I can help with, not the vaccine. And that is, we need to connect you with dr. Jennifer Priestley. Who’s one of the premiere data scientists, um, in the country. And, um, and has, uh, done some focus on using that for supply chain, because data is really what is transforming supply chain. Now, a lot of the techniques that we use in supply chain, a lot of the core foundations that we use in supply chain are presumptive on a lack of sufficient data. And now that there is more access and more sufficient data Mmm. We’re going to have a big transformation in how we manage supply chain going forward. Undoubtedly.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:34:51):

So, yep.

Scott Luton (00:34:53):

All right, Jenny,

Dominique Zwinkels (00:34:54):

[inaudible] education, crystal ball, education education. How do we, how do we make it so that when an operational, a crisis that requires operational capacity, it doesn’t infringe on the pipeline of education that budgets don’t get cut. That’s the importance of the ongoing education is not ignored and that’s at all levels. It’s not just at executive level. In fact, it’s, it’s almost as important, or it is more important perhaps from the, the workforce. Yeah. Um, they, they, they need to be

Jenny Froome (00:35:37):

continually have the opportunity for

Jenny Froome (00:35:40):

good education that is practical as well as there. Yeah. And all to all, to see you see that, of course is a cut. And it’s the courses for the, the, the low level worker who is actually the person who’s gonna get the goods from a to B. And if they’re not educated and they don’t understand safety and they don’t understand those important things. So that’s when accidents happen. And that’s where don’t get to where they’ve got to be, because they don’t understand the importance of what it is that they’re doing and how vital a component they are in the supply chain. So for me, education at the very, the very most basic level, not bells and whistles, just to get everyone understanding from a decision making perspective that ongoing education [inaudible] vital, it is absolutely vital. So that’s, that’s from that point of view. And what, what keeps you awake at night is how are we ever going to be able to fly again, to see, to reconnect with family? That’s my, that’s what I’m tracking. I’m tracking the flights. I’m a gas that there are so many airplanes going in so many different directions and faces. Um, it’s those when, when does the open and you’ll be safe for us to be connected with our families. Yeah,

Scott Luton (00:37:05):

yeah, that’s right. You can’t drive to South Africa from here, unfortunately, and a boat takes a long time. So speaking of, so the next two topics we want to tackle kind of the second half of the interview, Jenny, we’re going to pick your brain a bit and get also Dominic’s comments around, uh, the need to really make sure African supply chain initiatives and that community is more visible. So we’ll dive into that next. And then we want to pick your brains more on diversity and offer some best practices or some, some, uh, uh, ideas for enhancing those programs for other other organizations we’ll touch on that momentarily. But Greg, let’s talk about the need to, you know, we’ve been lobbying Lauren ever since I connected with Jenny in Chicago a few years ago and say, fix really that shame on me, hit my radar. Yeah. I’ve constantly been learning about a, what really neat things going on in the, on the African continent from a business standpoint, just from a, a community standpoint, but certainly from a supply chain standpoint, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s interesting to understand, and I think it’s important, as you said before, to understand that Africa is not a country. I hear that so often I think in the States, we often talk about Europe

Scott Luton (00:38:34):

as if a country,

Jenny Froome (00:38:36):

you know, they have the European union, but I’ve worked a lot in Europe and I can assure you that it is anything but unified. Mmm. And, and I think that people need to have that perspective. So, um, you know, tell us a little bit about, about the need for this visibility across Africa and, and what you feel like it can do, um, for the organizations, for the countries, for the people, the community, right. Does a hashtag that’s doing the rounds, which is Africa response. Um, and I think that that’s the main resonates because it’s such an, um, utilize or unrecognized factor that in Africa and in all countries in Africa, there are individuals who have Supreme skills and Supreme education, and they are totally capable. All right. Of changing the world. We’ve seen it. We know we’ve seen, we’ve seen it happen so often in Africa, we look East West for solutions and request, Hey, miss bench.

Jenny Froome (00:39:52):

And we have to, as, as Africans, now that I know I’m a sort of adopted one, I guess. Um, but, but we have to, we have to be able to create the things we need yeah. In our country. And this is something that a colleague, a mutual colleague has Dominique and mine, uh, Zucker and khaki, who, who is in Nigeria and she was doing a webinar and she talked about 3% of medicines and commodities are manufactured 3%. So that means that the rest in, from overseas, wow. Imagine right now the excruciating additional expense time lags, all of that, that are being experienced at the moment. And surely we have the capability of being able to do this awesome on the continent. And I think that this is something that more and more and more Africans are becoming more passionate about. Um, and I believe that that’s got to be a significant change. Yeah. That’s not a dissimilar problem with South America where a lot of goods are imported and they’ve started to tackle some of that. And they’re facing some of the same issues that you are, but Africa is such a vast continent, enormous countries like Nigeria, which we also learned about their population and others that are not nearly as big in terms of population. And you have okay. Broad array of

Dominique Zwinkels (00:41:34):

sophistication in terms of government and infrastructure and industry. Right. So, um, some sort of effort to kind of pull that all together, share that right across communities is an important, um, you know, it’s an important initiative. So, and I know that’s part, thanks, Dominique. Part of what, how you are working with Africa, but also how you’re working with to help try to Mmm. Create, I don’t know, a broader initiative across the continent. Yeah. Be careful to say continent. Yeah. We want to make people are aware of, of, of these issues. And I was going to mention the same thing. Okay. Jenny just stayed in that. You know, I think it’s really an opportunity for African countries right now, focusing on the strategic expansion of their local pharmaceutical manufacturing markets, sort of both for internal and consumption of course, and for experts. And my hope is there that, you know, they, the African union has set up the African medicine agency AMA Mmm.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:42:48):

It just needs to be ratified by all African countries. But once that is in place, they’ll have a regulatory body can then regulate medicines, products and technologies that these manufacturers be able to produce. And then we could really see Mmm. You know, Africa sort of expand on this and not be so dependent on, on imports of pharmaceuticals. Cause it’s just that dependency is horrific right now. I was just reading, um, a world bank Mmm. And a newsletter yesterday. And it said that they might know the very first recession in 25 years because of this pandemic, I guess the growth is going to decline so severely last year and this year. And I think that’s just going to hit African economies tremendously. So if they can start really, you know, thinking of sort of creative solutions, especially when it comes to manufacturing, I think that’s going to be really helpful.

Dominique Zwinkels (00:43:46):

And they’re, you know, Jenny and I can really help with, with know the, the health supply chain logistics professionals ensuring that that talent pool is there. And you know, we’re working, we’re working on that. So I’m happy to contribute to that. Are there other, I know, I know it’s beneficial to get help. Okay. More established supply chains. Are there initiatives that you all are working on that does that include people from the East or the West? Right. I’m not just observing what’s going on there, but people actually getting engaged in Africa to help with some of these initiatives, same, same. So, so, so

Jenny Froome (00:44:32):

much. And I think that that’s one of the potentially one of the challenges as well, um, is that from a, from a donor perspective, there has been a history of perhaps too much in too few places. And I think now with organizations like people that deliver sort of helping to make these international organizations more aware of what’s going in, going on on the ground and the different projects that are available organizations like the Gates foundation, USA ID, et cetera, have got such a diversity in their, in their offerings. Um, the people that they are funding the work that is being done, um, that the help that’s being given to various different areas of up until now, I have received very little funding. There’s a lot of work to be done. Um, but you know, for instance, one of the, one of the things that shocked me most was the, the, the lack, the lack of spotlight on women and productive health and these areas that, well, you know, women who live in areas of conflict who don’t get any form of assistance, and this is where the donor organizations of things, such a great in trying to create opportunity for organizations that are actively on the ground, helping these, these situations improve.

Jenny Froome (00:46:11):

It’s so processed hate on me. Yeah. We’ve, uh, you know, we know of many different donors and initiatives that have been working to help improve the health supply chain, uh, operations, et cetera, in Africa for over 25 years through our initiative, we’re really trying to ensure that there’s alignment between these investments being made, because we see a lot of sort of siloed investments. Um, and so they do good in one area, but then perhaps they may disturb disrupt another area. So we’re interested in ensuring that that alignment happens and they, we do get the sense that the donors do work much more closely and have been over the years, especially that was my experience with the HIV supply chain, where we would see heavy investment being made by USA ID, the global fund for, to be TB, malaria, and tuberculosis would come in and do their own thing. But now those, those investments are aligned quite a bit. Um, and then Gates foundation has come in quite heavily over the last few years as well, making investments in, in building the workforce, the health supply chain workforce. And we’re very happy with those investments. Again, they need to be aligned with other that are happening at the

Scott Luton (00:47:30):

same time. It’s a delicate balance. I mean, you have to acknowledge the conditions on the ground, along with your mandate to help. And you have to adapt that mandate in, in 54 respective countries to be able to, to be able to really help and, um, understanding the environment that you’re operating in is critical there. But also as you said, spreading the wealth and spreading the knowledge as equally as you can becomes really, really critical as well. Hey Jenny, can you decode conflict for us? So we hear that a lot in the States, but I don’t think people know exactly what that means.

Jenny Froome (00:48:11):

Yeah. Literally fighting. Um, I think, I think that the, you know, the Ebola crisis has, has me been a great education for me. Oh, great. In a good way. Um, but, but no, I have, I’ve learned a huge amount of what goes on in a state of conflict and how health and supply chain workers, health workers, and supply chain, essential workers, uh, instrumental effected by this. Because for instance, you’re working in a clinic, a boat that you’ve got positive cases, the clinic gets attacked and then all less people leave. They, they, they scatter. How do you then do your tracking and chasing and how do you, how do you then ensure that people keep up with their medication, all these, all these things that go on every day that I’m not just in Africa, it’s around the world. Um, but it’s, it’s when you start looking at supply chains in the health space, the public health space for me, because I’m not a supply chain practitioner, it’s really started to help to make sense of it all because at the end of the day, it’s a human life that’s affected by it.

Scott Luton (00:49:28):

Yeah. And that’s, and that’s the goal, right? I mean, supply chain doesn’t end until the cure, the product, whatever is delivered. So, and that’s, I think that’s an awakening that we need in supply chain, as well as we have to recognize that the end, the consumer, that’s what you want to call it. Are there any, anything that we move through the supply chain is part of the supply chain and we haven’t done our job until we’ve reached them. So, all right. So we’re going to shift gears from this very heavy topic here to another heavy topic, important topic, critical topic, uh, you know, our team has long held the belief that the global supply chain industry is going to lead us out of the pandemic into what’s next. And, and by extension, we believe that the global supply chain community is also going to help the global business community tackle some of the, our most pressing challenges. And one of those is absolutely without a doubt, diversity and making sure we’re providing opportunities all. I mean,

Scott Luton (00:50:28):

you know, we don’t have to share many numbers with our audience or y’all because there’s so many that show that, especially as you move up the totem pole, the proverbial totem pole into the upper levels of leadership, how little, uh, diversity is really, uh, how it manifests itself, you know, picking one bet definition. And the diversity is not just binary. It’s not two things, it’s not three things, it’s a wealth of things. Um, but you know, if you just take one nugget yeah. Just less than 10%. And if you look at the fortune 500 C levels, less than 10% of our, our, our females in that realm, and that’s just, we’ve got to change that. Um, we have other challenges that have really surfaced in recent weeks. We’ve got to change. So, but for the sake of this discussion, that’s really focused on diversity. It was focused on, um, the inarguable fact that, that healthy diversity levels within organizations have a bottom line impact, you know, McKinsey and many other well-respected organizations have, have provided exhaustive research to bear that out.

Scott Luton (00:51:32):

So if you’re in Dominic, we’ll start with you. If you’ve, if you had the ear Mmm. CEOs around the world that are already struggling with different components of culture and workforce and growth, you name it, give it, give them some thoughts, uh, around diversity and how to really become more meaningfully successful with their diversity approach. Yeah, of course. Mmm. Again, this is a, I think it was a very apropos question for the times we’re living in. So, but as an international development professional, I have to say I’ve always worked in very diverse workplaces currently at UNICEF. For instance, the department I work in it’s extremely diverse. We have staff from very different, unique backgrounds, technical areas, but also you should see the number of different countries that are represented, how many different African countries, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, et cetera, but also from the U S but from Japan as well, India, Korea, Estonia, etc.

Scott Luton (00:52:44):

And even Latin Republic as well. It’s quite tremendous. Of course the, the gender balance there is not as, as, as good as I would hope, but I know they’re working on that. Well, you know, real quick, Dominic, I mean, Hmm. You know, this is a journey. You never reach the finish line when it comes to diversity or continuous improvement or anything else. And if you can make strides in some areas while you still try to crack the code and others. Okay. Yeah. That’s a big part of the solution here. Right? Correct. That is very much. Mmm. So I a diverse workplace.

Jenny Froome (00:53:25):

Mmm

Jenny Froome (00:53:26):

[inaudible]. It can be very effective when you sort of allow employees, because I think I was going to say, because it all really allows employees to be more productive. So I think when you bring in many different people with different unique backgrounds and different technical areas and different countries, then there’s a flow of ideas, right. You don’t get when it’s sort of the same mindset. Um, and I think that flow of ideas is limitless. And so inside an office, I think people need to sort of let go of any biases they have and just worry about working together. That’s I think that’s the most important thing, strengthen your team and, um, and work together as a team and make that, that flow of ideas work. And then you become super productive.

Scott Luton (00:54:16):

Well said, Jenny, what, what would you, if again, if you had the ear of CEOs around the world and, and were which you do probably as a CLL that’s right. Greg, thank you. Um, what would you share along the lines of, of more meaningful, successful diversity approaches?

Jenny Froome (00:54:36):

Okay. So my last set together, everyone achieves more every single time because everybody brings something different to the table and that’s what we’ve got to do. And I think that, I think above everything, we just have to think, we have to think before we act, we have to think before we invite, we have to think before we do something as simple, not that it’s simple, but yeah. Putting together a conference program I’m putting together and I can hear Deborah and dull and Sherry in my head talking about, get rid of the mammal, you know, but it is that it is that it’s that subconscious chipping away at you, not in that, not in a negative way, but just in a chipping away, any form of lack of thoughts. Um, and I think we’re all, we’ve all been before this we’ve all been in such a rush just to get the job done, that we’ve not necessarily the best people with the right skills. Um, and I think that that’s definitely something that we will need to try a little bit harder to do. And I mean, you know, I live in a country where it is top of mind and it is something that we every day have to think twice about that people are exceptions sensitive too. Not as sensitive as they should be, not enough progress or in a way is being made. But we do live in a, in a society where people are allowed to be who they want to be much more.

Scott Luton (00:56:26):

Mmm. Okay. We’ve got a long way to go. But I do think that again, that goes back to education, education. Yeah. Being able to make a change to any form of data. Yeah. And, you know, part of education and a big part of education is the awareness that there is a challenge and the, and, and, and not just related to diversity, but many other issues. And, you know, uh, one of the roles we take very seriously here at supply chain now is, is serving as a vessel for that awareness and helping to facilitate the dialogue and the learning experiences and those exchanges, critical exchanges, a perspective that has to take place in order for the industry and for the business community to get better. And meaningfully not lip service. I’ll tell you, Greg, we’ve talked about that notion of lip service for a couple of years now, and we’ve done so very playfully, right.

Scott Luton (00:57:27):

But it’s really real. Now we got to have a bias for action, you know, more so now than ever before. So, Jenny, I appreciate your focus today in particular on education because it’s re is so critically important and it might sound cliche to some, but, um, we’ve got to learn from each other. We gotta learn from best practices. We are learned from past mistakes so that we can apply it and move, move the whole community forward. Greg, uh, before we wrap up and Dominic and Jenny, this is as enlightening of a conversation. I thought it would be as I better understood, especially Dominic, since we’re new to each other. And I started to appreciate your background. Y’all are one heck of a one, two combo here, and we need to bolster a couple more hours to this, but as we start to wrap Greg, and before we ask him for, you know, make sure our listeners can get in touch, what, what really stands out to you in this whole diversity conversation that we’re, we’re concluded an interview.

Scott Luton (00:58:24):

So I think, um, so very first thing that Dominic said prompted this, um, thought and response in me and that is she has had blessing yeah. Diverse upbringing and worked in diverse workplaces. And I think about that. Mmm, well, you know, myself having a multicultural family birth and Mmm [inaudible] I think one of the things, and also having had the same kind of experience in working in diverse workplaces and it made me think it’s really hard for me to fathom that it [inaudible] that much worse than what I’ve experienced, but you really have to acknowledge that. And you have to acknowledge that your circumstance particularly good might be highly exceptional and, and you need to engage with and embraced sort of some of the, I don’t know, lesser, worse, whatever you want to call it, type of working, um, life environments and, and acknowledge and, and, um, and sort of drink that in to figure out what the problem really is because I haven’t experienced it in the same level as other people.

Scott Luton (00:59:42):

Okay. Maybe not in the same level, but in the same way, I’ve experienced it from both sides. My people were immigrants too, the country we immigrated from and to the States. So, Mmm. And, and yet I’m a white guy, right. So I don’t even have the same problems that a lot of the people in my family have had. So, but still, I think you have to kind of, Mmm, I understand the difficulties that are really being experienced if you haven’t experienced it yourself. Yeah. And then use what is great about having that diverse experience to fix what is wrong with those non-diverse non fair sort of environments. Yeah. So, sorry. That was kind of a roundabout way of getting there, but I, I mean, I think, yes, it actually makes the perspective more difficult. If diversity is a part of who you are, then if it’s not, it’s so easy to recognize.

Scott Luton (01:00:41):

Yep. It hits you in the face all the time. So, so we’re going to wrap the interview here and, and, and Dominique and Jenny, and a moment we’re going to ask you, I would love for you to make kind of issue a challenge to our audiences. I’m gonna tell you a little bit of a curve ball issue, a challenge, especially given these unique times. And then secondly, let’s make sure folks know how that, um, connect with you, both and your organizations. Yeah. Because, because he’s not getting to watch baseball here comes the curve ball. Um, but you know, here, here’s my challenge. And, and, and look, I’m pointing at myself more so than anyone else, but, but you know, in this, in this quarantine era, in the last two, three months, we’ve all, most of us have lived in, um, it’s easy to dive into maybe double down on social media and it’s easy to take surface level discussions and, um, uh, misconceptions and buy into some of the inaccuracy is out there.

Scott Luton (01:01:33):

My challenge to audience and my challenge in my own family is to, is to go out and have meaningful discourse. Whether it’s pick up the phone, whether it’s, as you get back, you can have a cup of coffee, six feet away, and really seek to empathize. It’s not, it’s not us versus them. There, there are so many different facets of this conversation and the challenges we’re experiencing seek first to understand, and really understand and understand what we’re facing, whether, um, no matter where, what side, what, you know, angle of this, um, of this table, your own butt, but get out, can make a connection, learn and become more aware of what many [inaudible] folks are struggling with and are being challenged with. And then you’ll be much more, better prepared to help us as

Scott Luton (01:02:20):

an industry. Move ahead. All right. So, uh, Dominique, we’ll start with you, uh, give us a quick challenge and then let’s make sure folks can connect with, I love the name of your organization by the way, people that deliver. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. My challenge would be just educate yourself, really delve into the science and read up on what’s being developed so that really get to come to grips as to what Mmm. When it comes to the vaccine development, when it comes to the new treatments, like really delve into what being done, rather than just hearsay quick snippets on media. It’s just, that’s not all the information that’s out there, but there’s so much more in the science that’s being developed right now. So take a look at that great point. And so, and how can folks jump into that? We want to make sure we almost forgot, know how to support, excuse me.

Scott Luton (01:03:27):

And support the organization. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, if you want to learn more about us, uh, we have a website it’s WW dot people that deliver dots. Okay. Lots of information on there and lots of resources and tools. Um, of course, we’re also on LinkedIn and on Twitter. Oh, very active on that. And actually we have a webinar next week. Hey, tell us about a weapon that we’re doing together with an organization called c’mon international. Um, and we’re highlighting the whole supply chain workforce as essential workers. We’ll have examples from countries like Liberia, Mozambique, and actually, um, Jamie’s a partner it’s also going to be presenting outstanding, outstanding. And folks can find that at your website. I’m sure. Yes, absolutely. All of a sudden, if you follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter, you’ll find more information on that. Okay. Dominic, we look forward to checking back in with you, what a great, um, story the whole, the whole shebang was, was very informative, very intriguing. And look forward to checking back in Dominic is Winkle’s executive manager, people that deliver, which of course is allied with UNICEF organization. Okay. Jenny, I know, uh, Hayden, none of us are big fans of curve balls, unless you do hit it out of the park, but Jenna, you always hit these curve balls out of the park. So please issue your challenge and then let’s make sure folks know how to connect with, say, fix.

Jenny Froome (01:04:56):

Um, so the easy part first to connect with, say, it’s www.sap. I C s.org, and I am active on Twitter and other social media as well. Um, and my challenge is for people to think about how you can use and your privilege and whatever you decide that privilege is be it color, be it education, be it geography, be it, travel, whatever privilege you have, work out how you can share that to the best of the community.

Scott Luton (01:05:34):

Wow. That’s strong. That’s really powerful. I mean, I think, um, subconsciously people use their privilege for their own purposes. Just apply it to somebody else. All right. If you’re smarter or taller or whatever it is, right. Mmm. That’s fine. That is a fantastic challenge. Use it for good, agreed. Uh, use your privilege for good, but also Dominic’s get dive deeper. Yeah. You know, I’ll just take a sound bite here. Here are social media posts. You’re really getting informed and educated and we all the whole conversation gets better. Yeah. When that happens. Okay. So Greg, why don’t you, as we wrap, of course, we got to give you a chance to issue a challenge. So what would that be as we conclude today’s episode. Wow. After those two challenges, that’s um, that’s really tough. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. I, I think, I think it is, um, give more, yes.

Scott Luton (01:06:31):

You know, you mentioned it right. Siki first to understand. Mmm. I would challenge you as Stephen Covey challenge people in the seven habits of highly effective people begin with the end in mind. And by the end, I don’t mean the end goal of whatever initiative you’re thinking about. I mean, the end of, of your life, imagine you observing your own funeral and listening two people talk about you and give your eulogy at your funeral. What words do you want said about you? And that is the best way I think so to begin with the end in mind, if you use that as your goal, you will drive the right direction every single day. Love it. Outstanding, Greg, as always. Alright, so big. Thanks again to our guests, Dominick twinkles with people that deliver Jenny, Froome great to see you twice in one week, COO of save your days.

Scott Luton (01:07:25):

That’s two days back to back, Hey, a little Ginny every day, we all get better. For sure. Keeps the guard there away. Kidding aside. I really enjoyed it. Always a pleasure, love what you and your team are doing, and we will be connecting back in with you real soon. Yeah. Thank you, Dominique. Thank you, Jenny. All right. So thank you, Greg. You bet. Great to see ya. Um, all right. So as we wrap up here today, Greg, we want to invite, you know, it’s going to be a, um, a wild webinar. All right. Well, some are full of webinars. This is not a current state. So not only check out Dominic’s webinar, we’ve got a neat one coming up on June 25th with the folks over at rootstock. If you think about the challenge is that many manufacturers are going to have when it comes to optimizing ERP performance, and really by extension yeah.

Scott Luton (01:08:14):

Technology that makes manufacturing plants move forward. You still have folks that will be some remote locations, connectivity, all these challenges that are going to compound the environment, ran a so check out our June 25th webinar with Tom Brennan over at rootstock, you can go to supply chain now, radio.com to sign up for that free event. Greg, one last word, LinkedIn or Twitter. We’re everywhere. Social media. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Last word, Greg. Before I sign off, golly. Um, I don’t know. This is just so powerful and frankly, I’m really excited to hear about what’s going on in Africa. We talk about virtually every other part of the world. So frequently in Africa is if not the biggest, sorry, not much, not very good at geography, if not the biggest, one of the biggest continents and as we know, 54 countries, so, and in such need of uplifting.

Scott Luton (01:09:13):

So it’s good to see that their initiatives Mmm. You know, to help [inaudible] uplift the countries that need it. And I’m glad that that Jenny and Dominic are so aware of spreading the wealth and the knowledge throughout all of the continent. So that’s it. That’s my big takeaway. Yeah. A lot more successes that come out and from a supply chain perspective and many others from all the good work that these organizations are up to, uh, across Africa. Alright. So to our audience, thanks so much for tuning in today. If you enjoy today’s conversation, be sure to check us out and find us and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from on behalf of our entire team. And I know it’s a challenging time for so many, but working together and that’s a tired phrase, but that’s what it’s going to take to use. Uh, Jenny’s acronym together. Everyone achieves more. That’s what it’s going to take to move everyone forward and rest assured there are much brighter days in the months ahead for everybody. So on that note, we’ll see you next time here on supply chain now. Thanks.